Playing The Infinite Game: My Zepic Odyssey
Life is short. Career is much shorter. Do meaningful things that bring joy together with people you love and respect.
This has been my epiphany during the pandemic. Thanks to my family, friends and some caring coaches, I was able to sail through the tough times of the pandemic and thrive at the end of it. This is my story on why I joined ZEPIC and why I am so excited about it. So buckle up for a little long read 😀
Zarget, the Rocketship
I grew up in a small town and read a lot about tech, entrepreneurs and business stories. Like many of my generation, I started my career as a software engineer (first at Cognizant and then at SAP Labs). I accidentally bumped into a product management role a few years later and started loving it. As an engineer turned product manager, it was easy for me to understand product building and shipping. But understanding how sales & distribution works, how successful companies crack it like an algorithm, and how companies scale and flourish - these were the problems that I found fascinating.
I started devouring books and essays on startups, company building and biographies. I still remember the impact and after-effects of reading Walter Isaacson’s book on Steve Jobs. There was an allure to thinking in first principles, doing things people were not ready to do and, more importantly, having high agency and accountability for the decisions made. It rekindled my dream lit by the decade-long reading of biographies and startups. That dream made me quit my long stint at SAP and get into the startup rabbit hole. After experiencing a few false starts in 2015, I finally joined Zarget, a startup that has catapulted my career into hyperdrive.
Cambrian Explosion of Customer Data and Business Systems
Zarget was a startup focused on solving problems for performance marketers trying to improve conversions. Freshworks acquired Zarget, and it became Freshmarketer, we started solving problems for marketers in SMBs and mid-market companies. During my stint at Freshworks, I was privileged to tackle many ambitious projects, learned a ton, and got a front-row seat on scaling and growth.
As a company scales, the software tools and systems proliferate. Every business unit and organisation wants to achieve their goals, and all get into action with their tools of choice. The teams double down on the plans with the tools to reach their goals and propel the company’s growth, but it comes with a cost. I was able to witness a lot of them - data silos (the sales teams with no clue about the ongoing marketing campaigns), broken processes (stale data from one system impacting the campaigns in another system), plumbing different systems (data from CRM to be plugged into RevOps system), getting a unified view of a customer who is using/trying out various products of the same company and many other ‘good’ problems that every growing company has.
I was fortunate to be part of an initiative at Freshworks where we wanted to address customers’ needs in the D2C market. We were building a first-class integration and experience for the D2C stores. In that process, I spoke to many customers who were solopreneurs or small team operators (less than five people). Everyone had a common requirement but voiced it differently - they wanted to run cost-efficient, highly personalised campaigns. It was my biggest realisation that there was this unmet need of customers in all segments - be it SMBs or enterprises. Everyone wanted to uplevel their personalisation capabilities powered around a trusted, real-time, comprehensive customer record system like the CDP.
Unified Customer Record-Centric Products
It was a no-brainer decision to join ZEPIC when I understood they were solving the same problem. I got so excited about them when Naveen hinted that they were looking into the CDP space with this lens - to make it easy to ingest and unify the records and empower all the delivery systems for running effective campaigns using the unified golden record. I know the space is thriving with many discussions like “composable CDP vs. decomposable CDP” or “warehouse-first approach vs. CDP-first approach”. Many customer engagement platforms are becoming CDP systems (and planning an IPO), and many CDPs are expanding to add engagement tools with them. It is a Cambrian explosion moment in this space, and building products in this domain is exciting.
Many systems like CRM, ESP or MAS are built to solve customer problems first; they only try to think/leverage the unified customer record later. Solving that after creating the system comes with its own cost (delay, redundancy, syncing various systems in real-time).
What if you were to build a system with unified customer records as the foundational piece? If we create a system that makes it so easy to ingest, transform and unify the customer record, what exciting experiences can we deliver to the customer on top of it? With the unified golden record-centric architecture, ZEPIC is just now getting started and is in the very early innings. The future potential that gets unlocked by ZEPIC is what truly excites me.
Venture Out Alone or Join a Pack?
As a product manager, I find joy in building products, collaborating with engineers and designers, forging product-market fit (by working with sales, marketing and the entire GTM org), doing customer development interviews, and listening to feedback from diverse sources. I value them as fundamental product-building skills agnostic of any industry or domain.
In running a startup, product building is just one aspect. While getting that part right is vital, the most crucial element is building a team. Every founder knows hiring is the most challenging part of running a startup.
It doesn’t end there at all - building a team with your company’s core values and keeping them motivated is a different challenge. Money helps make the right noise and attract talented folks, but money alone is not enough. To face the daily challenges of running a company and sometimes to face the frequent curve balls thrown at your team is entirely different. I have seen many startups crumble because of people issues - a lack of sync between co-founders and critical stakeholders. Building trust, connection, and respect takes effort, time and luck.
Interestingly, once you find a core team you can trust, all the challenges of running a startup (hiring, product building, scaling, firefighting) become quite enjoyable. It’s not easy, but you can tackle any challenge and derive pleasure from it, just like any sport. You may not hit all the balls out of the park, but you know the team is always there to play the game together.
Finite Games vs. Infinite Games
I had worked with Naveen and BK right since the day I joined Zarget. I have worked with Sunil since we got acquired by Freshworks. I have heard many good things about Sree during my stint at Freshworks; if Naveen, BK and Sunil trust him, I am all in. Building a company is much more challenging than building a product. When I know a team that trusted and respected me, why not solve the problem together instead of fighting the battle from scratch?
I am a big fan of the “Infinite Games” concept by James Carse.
Finite games are played to win or lose. Infinite games are played to keep the game going. Infinite games are much more fun and meaningful because they yield infinite rewards.
At ZEPIC, the core team is the main reason for me to play the infinite game. Zarget, Freshmarketer or any fun project in Freshworks are all finite games with fantastic outcomes. But I am interested in the infinite game - working, playing, and facing challenges with the team I trust and respect. The infinite rewards are camaraderie, memories to cherish, and building value and wealth.
When you have a team that always makes work feel like play, would you refuse the opportunity to be part of this epic ride?
Storytelling As a Superpower
I wrote on Twitter something like this a few days and some people DMmed on this to continue the conversation.
Lessons learnt as a PM
10 yrs ago: Product/Customer > Tech
5 yrs ago: Distribution > Product
Now: Story > Distribution
I truly believe that storytelling is a superpower for anyone. I don’t mean storytelling like a JK Rowling style of excellent fiction. I am talking about telling compelling and authentic stories.
I have overlooked this skill because I thought people would view it as “the narrative fallacy”. I was thinking from my “head” and saying that people want interesting facts, something innovative or pathbreaking that makes them wow.
But I was wrong. We are genetically coded to listen and get attracted to stories. I love a good story. You too. In the words of Yuval Noah Harari, everything in our world is a story. Money, country borders, human rights, and diet are good stories that we all buy into and believe.
Life on earth is too complex. Our brains receive billions of signals every day. Story is our superpower to simplify and understand the world. We want the world to listen to us. We all should be good at distribution and marketing. Our medium might be words, video or audio. But the basic ingredient is a good, authentic story. I want to learn the craft and get better at it.
Do you resonate with this? Do you have any suggestions on becoming better at this craft?
One Night in Miami…
One Night in Miami was a movie recommended by some critics I follow on YouTube.
I am curious about Black people, their history and art. Last year, I invested a lot of time to understand about Vietnam War. That was fruitful in understanding Spike Lee’s 5 Da Blood movie and the scars left by the war in the human mind and its aftermath.
This year, I want to know their struggles, Malcolm X, MLK and much more nuances of that history. I believe I can draw parallels to the oppressed of my country to the Blacks. Dalits face the same problem as the Black has faced in the U.S and they still face too. But in the U.S, the Black have a strong voice and there is a good pushback from the popular Black people. I don’t live in the U.S so I don’t know how fairly they are represented in many institutions. From my point of view, by following a few progressive people, critics, artists, I understand their problem. I understand what it is to be a minority and how lack of privilege works. Unfortunately in India, we are a Brahmin or upper-caste dominated country. Be it media, business, art, it is quite rare to find a Dalit’s voice prominent. Yes, there are fringe voices like Pa. Ranjith or Nagaraj Manjule or Mari Selvaraj. but again they are a minority. There may be a lot more but at least in my media diet, I don’t have much diversity or the voices of Indian Dalits or oppressed people.
I liked One Night in Miami because it is my kind of movie. A movie that entertains and illuminates. I didn’t know the struggles of Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali. But I got to know about so much of history, challenges just by watching an event unfold in a single night of discussion. I want to know more about Malcolm X and Black Panthers and so on because of this movie. It is so masterfully made and very well written script. The first part of the movie in which James Wilson encounters a white person was so great and it makes you feel racism viscerally. I love that experience when a movie does that to you. I am really looking forward to tasting and experience the works of these masters in the upcoming days.
Sleep Experiment - Taping My Mouth
I have been running this experiment of taping my mouth before I sleep. I wanted to avoid mouth breathing while sleeping. I came across this idea after reading the excellent book on breathing by a journalist, James Nestor.
Breathe by James Nestor was one of the best non-fiction books I read last year. James argues with a lot of data points and stories on breathing and the right way to do it. Come to think of breathing, it is the most involuntary thing we do. So it is easy to do bad breathing and have side effects due to it. If you are interested in health, sleep and longevity, that book by James Nestor is a must-read. I digress.
What really caught my attention in that book is this: “mouth-breathing”. Many of our health problems and poor quality of sleep or endurance can stem from mouth breathing. There are aboriginal people who take the habit of avoiding mouth breathing seriously. This habit shows in their dental structure. They don’t have crooked teeth or asthma-related problems.
One experiment James did on himself is by sleeping with a small tape over the mouth. This forces your body to breathe through your nose. I was first sceptical about this experiment but I found a lot of vehement supporters for this on Twitter and Reddit.
I have floated in a tank filled with Epsom salt for 60 mins. I underwent cryotherapy and shivered like anything for 2 mins. All in the name of improving sleep quality. So taping my mouth didn’t sound scary. I wanted to give it a try. I was not sure of regular tape and the discomfort, so I bought Somnifix, a small tape specifically for this purpose.
For the past week, I have slept with my mouth taped on. It was not a bad experience at all. It is not a tight tape, so you cannot talk comfortably but still, you can talk. But more importantly, you become conscious in closing your month and in sleep too you do the same.
I know its too early to judge but I have mixed opinions. I felt quite refreshed and good after the mouth taped sleep. But my Oura ring data shows no big improvement or change at all. So I don’t know if I’m judging it quite early. I am going to continue this experiment for another two months or so. Hope to have some impact then.
What are your hacks or experiments to improve sleep or health, in general. Share it in the comments.
InterIntellect Salons
I have been attending the InterIntellect salons for the past 4 weeks. An InterIntellect Salon is like a dinner conversation. You have a topic and host (or more than one). You have a few guests who are interested in coming and talking about the topic.
I have been part of at least 6 salons so far. I want to connect with interesting but curious strangers and talk about topics or ideas of common interests.
My first salon was on authenticity. Maybe it was too late for me, and the topic needed more focus and attention, I exited from that salon quite early and slept off. The second salon was with Arden Leigh and Visakan; it was about aesthetics, symbols, and super interesting. The third salon was on objects and our relationship with them. Anna Gat hosted it. The fourth one was a super salon with the author Nir Eyal and Anna Gat.
I loved that super salon because I have been interested in Nir’s works for a while and I wanted to read his new book, Indistractable. It sounded a wise investment to put a 2 hours conversation with the author before jumping deep into the book. So I signed up for this salon. It was super fun. I also met @haideralmosawi in that salon. I liked the InterIntellect salons because they are not lectures or sermons. But it is more like an elaborate dinner conversation. What really attracted me to InterIntellect salon was the comfort and my yearning for belonging. I wanted to be part of a community or fly on the wall in some interesting and curious discussions.
Nir Eyal’s session was really a good example in which I wanted to know more about the topic. I could have invested my 8 hours of attention in reading the book or listening to the podcasts and so on. This salon was so interesting, and if the topic was really controversial, I could have asked my questions directly. I could decide if I need to delve deep into the book based on the conversation. After Nir left, we talked where we criticised the viewpoints and shared our concerns and doubts. This was a wholesome experience.
It is like being part of a dinner conversation with friends or family. You invite people to a restaurant or a party. You host them, and you try to see what connects with them and the common things that we share. We will definitely have differences, and our level of knowledge will be different. But the great thing about such conversations is the cross-pollination. An expert on one field can immensely benefit from getting some blindspots addressed by a novice or a newbie. A newbie can gain a completely different perspective in approaching a problem in their field based on an expert’s thinking in another field. That is what makes the conversation so powerful and effective. It is something uniquely common for the human species. We, after millions of years, have perfected this art after various iterations. Our languages and medium of expression have evolved in various ways to reach the pinnacle of conversation.
Yet, the medium conversation can be a double-edged sword when we focus on difference and try to prove who is better or good. If used in the right manner, a conversation is a delightful tool to unveil another person’s vulnerabilities and strengths. You can even peek into their childhood, their culture, their taste through the art of conversation. It is another medium in which too much preparation also helps or hampers. But if you are in the mindset of a host: a gracious, warm host, who can gently steer the conversation, it will be a delightful experience. I am so thrilled to explore more into the InterIntellect salons and perhaps host salons in the future.
Tiger, Parenting and Some Thoughts
I started watching the HBO documentary - Tiger. I completed the first part of the documentary.
It is about Tiger Woods and how his parents wanted him to succeed and put him on a path of becoming a great golfer. I feel truly sorry for the kid, Tiger. To be deprived so much of childhood, to follow his dad’s dream, right from 2. Swinging the club, visiting TV shows and repeatedly being thrust with golf. I really pity Tiger.
But then, if I peel back on why Earl Woods, Tiger’s father, was such a parent, it was interesting to me. He is a Vietnam War veteran. His mother looks like a typical Asian-Tiger-mom with no second thoughts about spanking or punishing the kid. I am not judging their parents because I can fully see them and my friends’ parents in them.
I still need to complete the documentary. So, I don’t know what other repressed emotions Tiger had, its outburst and the aftermath. But I guess their parents behaved like that because of the time they grew up in society. I have understood what a wasted cause the Vietnam War was and the kind of trauma that Earl Woods might have gotten from the war. His mom is from Thailand, and she is like any South Asian immigrant to the U.S. There is a question of identity and a scarcity mindset that always pushes you and says you are not enough. You need to achieve this. You cannot settle down on your laurels. You have to be careful with complacency. Your job is under threat and could be given to another immigrant ready to work for lower wages — blah blah.
I am not here to justify the parenting style of Tiger’s mom and dad. But I can relate to it as a South Asian driven and motivated by fear and anxiety to be not worthless and not become irrelevant and perish.
Maybe the South Asian mindset is a general term. I am painting in broad strokes. Is it because we were colonised and brutalised by Western countries for more than two centuries or so? Is it that historical legacy that we need to good? Is it that the feudal-casteist mentality in our society puts us on the treadmill of getting validation from an authority figure? In school, it is the teacher; in the family, the elder; and in the job, it is the boss and so on.
My parents have this thinking style, which they are not even aware of. It is ingrained in them. They still battle and struggle with that. Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaining about them. I am privileged now to pay and write in a blog and have many passions to pursue. If not for my parents’ style, I would have been in a different place in society, struggling to make ends meet.
I am grateful to understand my emotions and realise where they can stem from. I am also keenly aware of my parents’ environment and their struggles. But what is the point of talking endlessly about this? Am I bad-mouthing them in public? Maybe or maybe not. The more I am aware of this, and the more I speak about this to my family and friends, I feel better. My son and his generation will understand this and live with fewer shackles. I don’t know what other blind spots I have in my parenting style my son will uncover when he grows up. I will be elated if he finds my problems and thinks about my parenting style. But that is beyond my control.
The best parenting tip I have realised recently is “be the best person for yourself”. Parents are the most significant intrinsic influence a kid has. Like it or not, whatever qualities we have will get amplified and inherited by the kids. So, I need to double down on being more vulnerable, be my authentic self, and live with ease. That might be the best gift I can give to my son.